Provide a detailed response to the following prompt and respond to the post of at least one other student. This thread includes responses from the class of 2013 as well as your class. Feel free to comment on anyone else's post.
Discuss the subject of truth as it relates to Song of Solomon. Is truth static or changing? Is it fixed or subjective? How does one learn truth and is truth important? Give specific examples from the novel to support your position.
The actual truth is static, but what people perceive as the truth is always changing. The actual truth is fixed, but what people perceive as the truth is subjective. The actual truth is hard to learn. One must have been there at that time and place to know the truth of that time and place, but the truth is only somewhat important. Only what someone remembers from the past is what is important. People might not remember what exactly happened in the past but they will remember how it made them feel or a specific event. For example, the actual truth is hard to find in Song of Solomon. The truth is masked by old, twisted minds. To find the truth Milkman has to piece together both sides of the story, and ultimately make his own decision about what he should believe. The truth about the past keeps getting brought up again and again in chapter four. Things about Milkman’s past are finally being uncovered and it has left Milkman wondering who he is. Who his family is. When Ruth tells Milkman her side of the story, a new light has been shined onto the past and makes Macon bad. It makes him look like how he seems to act on a normal basis making Ruth’s story seem a little more truthful. The truth is also something that pries open the very root of a person, like Hagar and Ruth for example. The both can’t handle the truth that Milkman is no longer theirs. The truth in this case makes people become obsessed with one thing and sort of takes over their lives. Truth, good or bad, real or not, is important. It makes a person who they are.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the comment where you said the truth is fixed, but the versions are ever changing. How time continues on, the truth continues changing. Also, when you said the truth makes a person who they are, what if they do not know the truth, only knows a lie, or tells the lie themselves, then what is that person. Such as Milkman, he did not know the truth and know he is learning it, but the more he learns, the less he knows who he really is.
DeleteJess,
DeleteI agree that the truth can be something that pries at you until you cannot take it any longer. I think that most of the time this occurs when you have lied to yourself or another person, and because of that decision, it is eating away at you. For example, if you get into trouble and don't tell the truth right away, you end up feeling guilty because of the decision to withhold information or lie. I liked your closing line about how truth makes a person who they are. That really is true. A person is made by the things that people say about them and also how they define themselves. Overall, truth is what Milkman searches for throughout the novel.
I love the parallel structure you use in your opening lines. You make some interesting points. I am particularly intrigued by the comment that truth "pries open the very root of a person." Beautifully worded and insightful. The connection made between truth and identity is powerful in your response.
ReplyDeleteTruth is a tricky thing. Truth can be mysterious, unknown, changed, or even sometimes the whole truth is not explained. The truth can be changed due to emotions, ideas, or memories. Such as the difference is Pilate's truth and Macon's truth. Or even when Macon punches Pilate in the face and then Milkman punches Macon. At the time the truth to Milkman is a man never hurts a defenseless lady, but lady Macon tells Milkman his truth of Macon's wife, Ruth, and her dad and why the comment and smile that Pilate made set him off the edge. Often times many people do not want to know the truth, such as how Milkman's mom, Ruth and Ruth's dad were so close. Knowing the truth can sometimes be a burden, but many believe it is better to know the truth than to believe a lie. Truth is hard and tricky, but a real person tells the truth. The real truth, not the one the changes to help their side of the story. The truth that someone would remember and tell as if they did not care who was better in the situation, or who needs to look good.
ReplyDeleteBecca,
DeleteYou are so right with the fact about truth is tricky and truth itself can have so many different "personalities" if you will. The example about Macon and Ruth telling different examples is an example I used too, because they both think their side of the story is the truth based on their feelings during the situation. Also, I agree with you on the fact about sometimes people really don't want to know the truth. The truth hurts and can be very disturbing in Ruth's case.
Tory
Becca, you really bring the most important issue about truth to the forefront in your comment to Jess. This idea of whether it is better to know the truth or not is what Milkman seems to grapple with throughout the novel and your comment that the more truth he has the less he seems to know himself is intriguing.
ReplyDeleteTruth is such a hard thing to define. Every person has their own definition of it. Although each person knows in their own heart what is right and true, people try to lie to themselves and learn to believe a false truth. For example, Milkman lies to himself about how he actually received his nickname. He knew all along that there was a reason he was called "Milkman", but he shoved the real story far back into his mind so that he could forget about it. Also, the father doesn't really know the real reason that he is being rejected by the mother, so he may be making up his own story about what actually occurred around the time of Dr. Foster's death. I believe that the real truth that no one can argue about is static. Although people try to sway other's opinions, there is still evidence that proves them wrong. As Jess said, what people perceive as truth is subjective to the viewer. Although one thing may have appeared one way to me, a different witness may take a completely different story out of the situation. As Milkman searches for his past and who to believe, because every story is slightly different. How is a person supposed to find truth in a place where lies are told so loosely. Truth is shown as subjective during many scenes at the barber shop. When they discuss politics and who actually committed the crime, everybody had their own opinion, and after awhile, others begin to believe one story.
ReplyDeleteYou say that there is a definite truth, because people can be proved wrong. I think however that someone can make up a story and people will believe it, and then the truth because proved wrong. Then that lie is made the truth in everyones minds. Remember from Comp when we read 1984 and they made up events, but they were true because everything the government said was true in the citizens minds. They made the character believe that 2+2 made 5. He thought that was the truth. Maybe truth is different in every situation. I agree with you that their is right and wrong, but sometimes one can't help from being strayed away from truth.
DeleteTruth is how a person perceives an event. One may see an event as relevant while the other sees it as irrelevant. The important part of truth is what you gain from it. Truth is static, it always stays the same but how each person remembers or thinks they remember is constantly changing. I might see as the truth could be different from my friends. In your mind you might not be able to control what you believe is truth. I might remember an event a certain way but really my mind changed it to possibly what I really wanted to happen. Macon describes his wife's love for her father as creepy and borderline psychopathic because he is so jealous of the attention Dr. Foster gets over him. His mind makes every little detail of Ruth substandard. Truth is also fixed and just because years have gone by what actually happened is still the same. To learn from truth you must be proven wrong. Milkman's view of what Macon thought of Ruth's action is changed by Ruth's view of her actions. Truth is important. Without truth the world wouldn't be where it is today. Every person to date can think of one moment in there life when they found out what actually happened that was contrary to rumor.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jess that truth makes a person who they are. She explained the relationship Ruth and Hagar have with Milkman. It is very true that they both can't come terms with reality.
I agree with your comment that a person is able to alter the truth in their head. A person may change the truth to benefit them self. Altering the actual memory or truth may be a protection mechanisms for some, but because of this the truth is edited to a new form that could affect others in a negative way.
DeleteTruth is different for everyone. At first one might think truth is the correct facts, but what facts are really true? This statement seems contrary because truth should be fixed. However, what one person thinks is true can be completely different than another person. So how do you tell which one is telling the truth? It is simply impossible. Even if you were there witnessing the same event as those two people, the way you see it could of been different or biased. Ruth's story and Macon's story of the same event are completely different and Milkman hears both sides. How is he to ever know which of his parents' stories are the truth? Our minds often turn things into more then they actually are or they change the event to how we wanted to happen, so truth really isn't fixed at all. I don't truth is all that different then beliefs. Yes, some things are true, such as how Milkman got his name, but to others it is the truth because it's what they heard from others so they in turn believe it. What one choses to believe is kind of like the truth, or what they think the truth is.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree that everyones "truth" can be something different. every person perceives things in different ways and so the "truth" that they know about it could be something totally different than what another person knows about the same thing.
DeleteTruth is static but then may become ever changing. The facts and reality of an event make it true but depending on how the truth is retold it may change. People are sometimes said to “stretch the truth” which causes a change in the facts that happened. Truth always has one certain state but is altered for many different purposes. When the truth is altered it becomes subjective to that certain persons views. Different opinions take the starting format of truth and mold it to fit their personal preference. Truth is changed in ways to benefit a persons beliefs. One will never know if they have actually learned the truth. They may become reassured by others that witnessed the truth but will never know for themselves. Usually the truth itself plays a small role in the impact on someones life. The feelings the person takes from the truth is what affects them in the future. Sometimes however a false truth may influence a person's decisions in a negative way. Trust can be lost and emotions are never the same because of a changed truth or lie. In Song of Solomon the actual truth will never be known. Milkman finds it difficult to sort out the truth from the lies he was told. The stories Milkman are told only have an affect on him if he decides they do. He may take his fathers subjective view and believe it or he can ignore the story. In a world like Milkmans the truth is never quite told. The truth is transformed into stories that benefit the storyteller. Depending on what a person believes changes how they progress through life.
ReplyDeleteTruth should be static, but it doesn't always stay static. People change stories that they think are tru, but aren't for sure true. Kind of like rumors getting spread. Person A told person B and people just keep telling people, but usually end with, at least that's what such and such told me. Also with truth changing events through history are probably changed throughout each generation that passes them on. One person may perceive the story different and more details or leave out important details. Just like in the story, Macon chganges the story about finding Ruth and her father in the bedroom. He probably thought the story went his way because Ruth was always seeming to pick her father over her husband. With that, truth is fixed until proven otherwise through opinions. When people tell Milkman different stories that happened in the past he has to decide whether or not they are telling the truth. He uses his own opinions and thoughts to determine whether it's true or not. A person leatns truth by parents and other adults that they are close to in their lives. I don't know if Milkman has learned the importance of truth, and if he has it hasn't been from his parents. The only things they have taught him is how to fight, bicker, and insult others.
ReplyDeleteI agree that when people stretch the truth, it is impossible to know the real story. Many stories that we have been told our whole lives may well be false or only partially true because of the amount that the storyteller have changed them. Milkman has a hard time deciphering the true because he has so many contrasting stories told to him. How would he know which ones are true?!
DeleteActual truth never really changes, but like Jess said, what we perceive or know as the truth might change. For example, Milkman just thought his nickname was a nickname, so to him that was the truth, but he later finds out that the actual truth is that it came from something gross and revolting to a lot of people, something he didn't really want to be known for. I think that to learn truth, a lot of times you have to search for it. Truth isn't something you just know, it is something you learn or something you acquire. It's important because truth is what most things are based off of in life. If your life is a lie, then you really aren't living YOUR life you are just living A life. I think that Milkman kind of experiences this when he doesn't know where he came from, and he is searching for his history and the truth about his life.
ReplyDeleteI think truth is static. Truth is absolute, so it never changes. Our perception on the truth may change, but the truth never changes. The facts will always remain the same. Truth is fixed, but people try to make it subjective in order to make themselves feel better about the things that they do. For example, the truth is that lying is wrong, but people try to make that rule subjective by saying that lying is wrong, except when it is just a little white lie. This makes people believe they are still doing what is right, when in reality they are not. You learn truth by searching for it. You ask questions and you find answers. Sometimes it takes faith to believe the truth, especially because you can never be certain of most things. Truth is important because if it is not, then everything we know is a lie. Milkman discovers all of this throughout the book. He becomes a victim of the faith that he put in both his mother and father when they both stretch the truth about his family in order to benefit themselves.
ReplyDeleteTruth is absolute, there is no way to change truth. However, I feel that truth is different to people based on perspective. Two people may have different views on something and they both believe they have the truth. This is very true in Song of Solomon. Many times throughout so far, we have only heard one side of the story, so we believe it to be true. It will not be until we know the other persons side of the story that we will know the full story and truth. For example when Dr. Foster died and with the whole situation afterword, we only know Macon's perspective, we do not know Ruth's side of the story yet. I feel that to learn truth, you need to seek it out, and not just believe what you have been told. Each person needs to figure out the truth for themselves, because if they do not know the truth from what they found out, what meaning will it have in their life?
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. Everyone has different opinions about certain things, and they all think what they believe is true, where as someone else might not think it is true. Truth also goes along with listening. How do you expect someone to know whether something is true or not if they don't listen to what others believe?
DeleteYou definitely bring a point that i haven't really thought about, that is that truth can't be changed but it can be perceived differently. I also thought of it has one way or the other. Also, I agree that for one to find the truth, they must for themselves seek it out and not just believe it because you never know what side of the story you are being told as seen by Milkman and his parents. I feel like at some points, milkman wants to seek the truth but then at others he seems like he could care less, like is seen in his community about Emitt Till.
DeleteDefinitely Agree with you, seeking truth is very important in finding identity, only problem is that due to people's bias and their desire to save themselves from embarrassment or harm or hate they have the power and will to change their story to be in a favoring light for them which often masks the truth that we are yet to discover
DeleteJill, I think you are absolutely right that Milkman sometimes seems on a quest for truth and sometimes seems to run from it.
DeleteTruth in Song of Solomon plays an ever-changing role. As related to characters, each one knows their own truth of what seems to be rule in one owns life. This supports the claim that truth is subjective. What one character experiences, and is exposed to is totally different from what another character is exposed to. For example, when Milkman believes he knows the truth about his mother from only hearing form his dad, in all reality there is more to the truth than what Milkman thinks. So, truth is personalized for every person. Truth is also changing, especially if it is subjective, because the characters gain more knowledge which aids in changing the truth about their past. One learns truth by not just searching for it but rather observing all sides of the story. For example, if Milkman just solely looked and searched for others to answer his questions, he would not get the full story. He has to personally experience and observe to make his own truth about his life. Truth is especially important in Song of Solomon, especially for Milkman. Truth is what Milkman seems to base his reality and feelings off of for other people, just how he started to act more distant from his mother after hearing what his father had to tell him. Truth also seems to give purpose for Milkman in finding out who he came from and now, who he is. He wouldn’t be able to grow and evolve from a childish, and somewhat naïve boy. I, personally, think that truth helps one mature and grow up.
ReplyDeleteJill Christensen
I agree that truth can help someone grow up, and that it is necessary for personal growth, but what if one's subjective truth turns out to be a lie? For example, when Macon tells Milkman about what Ruth did when her father died, that becomes Milkman's truth. It is a harsh and disturbing truth that changes the way he views the world and makes him "grow up". But what if this is a lie? Is it better for Milkman to be told a lie that leads to personal change, or is it better for him to not have lies in his head and remain unchanged? The narrator does not tell us much about the past, just what is happening now. So we have to trust unreliable characters to tell us their truth. But if Macon believes one story and Ruth another, who is right? Both? Neither?
DeleteI agree with Kalena if you are "forced" to grow up on a slightly manipulated version of the truth it is the equivalent of building a house on a tilted or cracked foundation. It'll last for a while but it'll cause more problems in the long run. However the ultimate damage does depend on whose version of the story (if either one) is accurate. If Macon's turns out to be false it'll cause more damage to Milkman because that has been a part of what he has seen as true for a longer amount of time. He has ever accepted it to the point of alienating his mother. If his mother turns out to be lying it will only destroy their relationship more, it will affect him less because he has less of a relationship to loose. If they are both lying then it's going to destroy their entire family.
DeleteKalena and Nicole, I liked reading your posts because they're so well said and thought out. I would agree that we are shaped by the subjective truths we grow up hearing and seeing. The actual, fixed truth is something that is up to us to attempt to seek out for ourselves - but if it simply comes from our observations or someone else's, it will always be either incomplete or flat out wrong. However, the search for truth is still vital, despite the fact that we may not be able to accurately identify it by ourselves. I think that Milkman is going to quickly grow as a character when he realizes this.
DeletePeople view truth in many different ways. Some think you should always be honest and tell the truth, while other think it is alright to tell a white lie every once in a while as long as you have a good reason. I believe being truthful is a wonderful quality a person can have. The Dead Family has no meaning of truth. Macon and Ruth's relationship has so many lies and things that they keep from one another. Truth is non-existant in their relationship. They keep a lot from their kids and shelter them in a way. They have had an exceptional lifestyle compared to other Black kids growing up in their town. They haven't had to experience a lot of what other kids might have. The relationship between Pilate's family and Macon's family is also a mystery. The author doesn't come straight out and say everything, she makes the reader think and uncover the secrets on their own.
ReplyDeleteI do think the lack of truth in the Dead family is very sad. Without truth, they can't experience the pure happiness that comes with being around family. The un-present truth will forever block their relationships like a barrier.
DeleteThis book thus far is a perfect example of relativism because everyone has their version of the "truth" and they all think that they are "right". For example we have seen multiple accounts of the story of Dr. Foster's death and we don't know which (or if any) of the accounts are true or not. So in this story truth is both static and changing because we don't know what the truth is we can only see the perception of what the characters want us to think that the truth is at the current time. The only we learn the truth in the story is through the he-said-she-said monologue and dialogue.
ReplyDeleteIn Song of Solomon the truth is ever changing. Each chapter we are told some new bit of information and in the next their very well can be a contradicting statement about it. Like Milkman we are supposed to debate who is telling us the truth and what we want and choose to believe given all the evidence at hand, which is part of the reason Morison begins with Milk's birth and has several cuts in his life where we learn information as Milkman ends up learning it, that way we have the main character's POV that is to be swayed by influencing character's biasness and not having a narrators knowledge of every last detail shown to us.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that the truth is always changing throughout the book. I liked your comparison between Milkman and us the reader. You make a good point in that we are like Milkman trying to discern the truth. You also make a good observation in that Morrison begins with the story of Milkman's birth.
DeleteIn Song of Solomon, truth is constantly suppressed, ignored, or twisted. Not a single character is unaffected by truth. Truth is static, but the what people believe and discover is ever-changing. For Milkman, truth about who he is and where he fits in his family and community is his real quest; his other pursuits for money or respect or fun are his surface-level quests. But the truth is hard to find, if not impossible, because of all the other characters' perceptions of truth. Eventually, Milkman will have to just do the best he can to discover truth on his own, without the influences of his loved ones.
ReplyDeleteSam, I completely agree when you say that "truth is constantly suppressed, ignored, or twister" I think that it is very hard to find the truth in this book and it is difficult for Milkman to decide what truth is because of all of the people around him giving their perceptions of the story
DeleteIn Song of Solomon, we have the opposite of an unreliable narrator - we have a full cast of unreliable characters and a perfectly objective narrator that details their opinions. This story is kind of unique in the way it handles truth, in that the reader is just as ignorant as the characters. Often, novels will include foreshadowing or a scene with vital information that the protagonist is unaware of, making every moment until he or she finds out the truth extremely frustrating for the reader. We think it should be painfully obvious and this distances us from the character. But Song of Solomon forces us to become close to every character, to imagine their motives and perspectives in order to understand their actions. By working through a story where each subjective truth is possible, we are forced to explore each character's world. And when we examine their relationships, characters can change from good to evil depending on the perspective, making them multi-dimensional. Paradoxically, the fact that the "truth" is so difficult to figure out makes this book more realistic that most.
ReplyDeleteKalena, I couldn't agree more with what you said about being forced to experience each character's world. The only way anyone can even make sense of this book is that way! Morrison leaves us questioning so much, if we want to know anything, we must dig deep and think about the motives and connections between all characters.
DeleteKalena, I absolutely love how you expressed your thoughts here. You really made some good points. I agree that the book is very realistic in the way it deals with truth. There is almost never a full or definite truth in life; there is always something we do not know or do not fully understand. That is exactly what the characters are dealing with, and the truth is being shown to us and the characters, piece by piece, at the same time.
DeleteKalena, very well said. I love this book for that very reason. The murky version of truth it presents feels more real to me than most books I have read.
DeleteI do believe that the truth is the truth, but it is constantly being changed by the perception of others. This deception makes it hard for the readers of Song of Solomon to discover the real truth. Morrison doesn’t give out information like most authors do. All of her readers are just as clueless as it’s characters. We must look at each character closely and put together the pieces ourselves. Then, we can judge or discern the facts. As we read we can refine our beliefs and make our own final judgment. We may all believe we know the truth at the end of the book, but Morrison won’t tell us everything. Just as the characters have their own perceptions, so do all readers. This complicates things even more. As I read, I may subconsciously tilt the truth due to my own life experiences. It is up to us to ponder the roles and action of all of the characters, even when we are done reading the book.
ReplyDeleteTruth is and always will be whatever someone interprets it as. As many of you have already touched on, I believe that the characters in the story are very ignorant, especially Milkman because he does not know the full story yet and neither do we. At first the readers feel a sort of disdain towards Macon Dead because he is quite abusive towards his wife until they hear, along with Milkman, that Ruth had a "special" relationship with her father. Truth does not have as great of effect on people as many would believe. It is the feelings you remember not the truth, which is why people don't always remember in detail what happened but how they felt and can often "stretch the truth". This novel will probably keep revealing more and more facts that happened but Milkman may have to chose which one he interprets as the truth and so will we.
ReplyDeleteI love your comment that, "It is the feelings your remember not the truth." That is an incredibly insightful comment and so true (whatever that means).
DeleteJessica, you made a very good point with the fact that the truth is always changing because our perspective changes constaly as well. I really enjoyed the part about "deception makes it hard for the readers of Song of Solomon to discover the real truth" because I also think that Morrison will never give us the whole truth. She will never spell it out for us and I believe that she will leave us asking which one is correct and we will have to take our own stand like Milkman.
ReplyDeleteTruth is a confusing thing. There are very few things that have a definite true or false. A lot of time truth changes as society changes; for example, truth used to be that humans could not fly, but now we have airplanes. There is a definite truth in the fact that humans need air to breath. Milkman is having a hard time discovering his truth. He has so many different directions he could go. He has his dad's truth or Pilate's truth. Part of his journey will be discovering what he believes is true and what is not. He is confused throughout the novel of what he wants, and what he believes, often changing his mind. Truth is very important to finding peace or comfort; one learns truth through experience.
ReplyDeleteIt's easier for me to view truth as very black and white; there is true and false and the answer never changes. However, you make some very convincing points on how truth could change as society changes, and that honestly blows my mind to think about. I thought your people flying example was perfect evidence and it gave me a much better understanding on the concept. Excellent Job!
DeleteSo far in the book the truths in Song of Solomon could be perceived as changeable or indefinite. This could be because Pilate, Macon, and Ruth share truths that are all conflicting to Milkman, however Milkman does little to uncover what is actually true. Instead of digging deeper to uncover truths about himself and his family's past, Milkman just focuses on working for his dad and living a life of partying. I have not questioned the matter of their not being one absolute truth in the story because frankly the characters have not provided much evidence in there understanding and discovering on what is actually true. I think Morrison chooses to set her story this way so the one definite truth unravels at the end once Milkman takes his quest for truth more seriously and grows in his character development .
ReplyDeleteI agree that the truth in Song of Solomon could definitely be indefinite. But, I feel like there will not be a definite truth at the end of the book and I think that Milkman will not search for the actual truth. I think that what happened between Dr. Foster and Ruth has no impact on Milkman other than the fact that he witnesses Macon fighting with his mother over it. I think that the conflicts outside of his control will not be looked at twice since he can not do anything about them.
DeleteThis is a hard question. I would like the think that there is a clear answer but I don't think there is. I believe that truth can be both static and changing. At one point something might be true but circumstances and the world around it can change. I believe that truth is extremely influenced on opinion and perspective. I think in this story is getting very mixed signals from everyone. They might be truths to everyone but Milkman needs to decided on his own truths. As others said, Milkman needs to go on a quest of his own to find those truths. I believe truth is important because what you believe greatly influences who you are as a person.
ReplyDeleteIn Song of Solomon truth is a big subject. Some truth Milkman does not won't to know and other times he is too scared to ask. I think it is possible for someone to believe something is true but it might not be what really happened. Maybe time altered their memory and some people have different perspectives than other such as Ruth and Macon when they each told Milkman a different story about the events that took place after Dr. Foster died. So I think that truth can be different and we may never know the exact 100% truth because most of the time it is based on other peoples perspectives and past experiences. I think truth is very important to everyone no matter if you really want to hear it or not but I don't have an answer for how truth is learned. I think that as you grow up you learn how to observe and read people and situations that just makes you a better judge of truth
ReplyDeleteI believe that the truth is only static for a certain period of time and then it changes. I feel like over time the truth will bend in order to make it more intriguing to someone that would hear it. Sometimes, the actual truth and the fake truth are both so interesting that we do not know which one to believe. In chapter 3, Macon tells Milkman that the reason he is so angry with Ruth is because of her bitter and greedy father. Macon says that Dr. Foster may have had a sexual relationship with Ruth as he saw her naked next to her father's corpse with his fingers in her mouth. According to Ruth, her father cared about her like no one else did so they formed a bond unlike any other. She claims that she was in her slip while she kissed her deceased father's fingers and that Macon killed her father. Which one seems more realistic? We don't know because for one of those stories, the truth was bent. Sometimes, the truth is important. About half the time, it's beneficial and the other half it hurts. The truth always needs to be shared with the exception of hurting someone emotionally or mentally.
ReplyDelete